Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 1964

Video reprise

The YouTube video of the Eurovision contest is of the winning reprise, which is shorter than the actual contest performance (compare it with the audio clip). Edited accordingly. Archzog 11:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Error in score sheet

The score sheet seems to indicate that Monaco received 20 points rather than the 15 that this (and other sources) says elsewhere. Corrected using detailed score from www.eurovisioncontest.co.uk Archzog 16:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant info

The passage "It would take until 1966 before the first black singer, Milly Scott also of the Netherlands, would appear on Eurovision stage. Milly was born and raised in Suriname. " is not a fact about about the 1964 contest (any more than it is about any of the earlier contests) so I have removed it.

It is information relevant to the 1966 Contest, and is covered on the 1966 Contest page. Archzog 11:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ESC1964.jpg

Image:ESC1964.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Netherlands

"The Netherlands became the first country to send a singer of non-European ancestry, Anneke Grönloh was of Indonesian descent." Unfortunately this is a fact that can be debated as both Esther Ofarim and Carmela Corren who competed 1963 are from Israel, which is not located in Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.2.94 (talk) 21:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

However Annele Grönloh is the first contestant that came from a country that is ineligible to perform in the Eurovision Song Contest due to geographical causes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajitirj (talk • contribs) 12:58, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Language of the Yugoslavian song

Someone wrote that the yugoslavian song was performed in Bosnian language, which is not correct. In 1964, the bosnian language did not exist, as the official languages of Yugoslavia were Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian, and Slovenian, and the song was performed in Serbo-Croatian language, as it was officialy called in that time. Vanjagenije (talk) 12:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Report of a fire at DR is false

The claim that the Danish recording of the show went lost in a fire is false, and unsubstantiated.

In the early summer of 2019, I was curious to this fire, so I went and researched on about it. Finding nothing, I decided to send an E-Mail directly to DR, who wasn't able to confirm what happened to the tape. They did, however, redirect me to a site called Biblioteksvagten, who specializes in researching information. Having sent them a message, they managed to point me in the right direction. After a bit of searching, their pointer made me find an article on DR's website, celebrating the 55-year anniversary of Denmark hosting the Eurovision Song Contest. The article, mostly comprising of pictures, included this paragraph of text, underneath picture no. 4 (In Danish):

Danmark stillede med den dengang 24-årige Bjørn Tidmand. Han sang 'Sangen om dig', der endte midt i feltet med en 9. plads. Desværre ejer DR - og heller ingen af de alle deltagende landes tv-stationer - hele showet fra dengang. DR har det kun i uddrag. Når DR sendte Dansk Melodi Grand Prix fra 1957 til 1966, var det - dengang som nu - direkte, men DR båndede det ikke, og det samme var tilfældet med Eurovision Song Contest i København i 1964. (Foto: Dr arkiv)

Rough translation from Danish to English, done by me:

Denmark entered the contest with the then 24-year-old Bjørn Tidmand. He performed 'Sangen om dig', which placed right in the middle, at 9th place. Unfortunately, neither DR - or any participating country's TV-stations - has a copy of the entirety of the show. DR only owns a snippet [of the show]. Back when DR transmitted the shows from 1957 to 1966, it was - like now - live, but DR didn't tape it. The same was true for the Eurovision Song Contest in Copenhagen in 1964. (Photo: Dr archive)

What can be concluded from that paragraph, is that the Danish tape did not go lost due to a fire, but rather, was never even recorded. I have not been able to find a source, saying that there was a fire at DR's archives. Finding the source of the claim has also been unsuccessful.

Additionally, I have been unable to find the BBC documentary The Lost Tapes, as mentioned in reference 7. Having made a post on Reddit, in order to try and find the documentary, the original user who cited the documentary came in to help find it. However, I have still been unsuccessful in finding the referenced documentary.

Reason why I haven't just edited the mistakes, is because my fear of typographical errors, and not being able to formulate myself proper. Felt this was a necessary thing to bring people's attention to, and hope someone will take on the job of fixing the falsehoods in the article.

--VicKapAnd (talk) 16:04, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Reported French copy

The link that supposedly proves that the show still exists in France (http://inatheque.ina.fr/doc/TV-RADIO/DA_CPF96003532/9eme-concours-eurovision-de-la-chanson-1964?rang=334) - does that actually represent a recording? Is it not more of a copyright notice? Spiny Norman (talk) 22:39, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

1964 Transmission frames

A while back, a Dutch researcher I’ve been in contact for almost a year now, handed me full scans of the 1964 transmission frames that we know of, after I asked him if he had them. I have access to them now, and I plan on sharing them on Twitter.

I’m asking if we could include the transmission frames we have of the 1964 contest. This include the 16 frames that can be found on Diggiloo Thrush (but it has the full frame) and 4 other frames my contacts found.

I’m not sure if this would count as a copyright violation or not, because these stills are generally seen as photographs, and it doesn’t seem like we know who took the 16 stills. However, I do know which archives include the other 4.

The other 4 frames include:

- A frame of Lasse Mårtenson (along with him performing in the background; belongs to YLE) https://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/art-2000002825027.html

- 2 frames of Gigliola Cinquetti‘s performance before she won (in a magazine that’s offline) site where one of my contacts found it: https://www.todocoleccion.net/musica-revistas-antiguas/discobolo-n0-49-abril-1964-eurovision-no-tengo-edad-sylvie-vartan-flaps-diablos-negros~x345988033

- A frame of Cinquetti getting her flowers after winning. (Italian archives) https://archivio.corriere.it/Archivio/interface/view_preview.shtml#!/MzovZXMvaXQvcmNzZGF0aWRhY3MyL0AxNjM2MA%3D%3D

I think putting these frames on Wikimedia Commons is okay, because the 1965 frames are featured and those don’t have a problem, likely because the film quality is poor. Jusherman (talk) 05:55, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

My personal view is that whoever uploads a picture to Wikimedia Commons should be 100 per cent sure that the picture doesn't violate copyright or any other rights before uploading it.

• Wikimedia Commons copyright rules for Denmark might help for a first orientation. Interestingly, it says copyright for photographs taken before 1970 expired after 25 years but then it's not clear whether video material still count as photographs, and I'm not a legal expert in Danish law.
• If the pictures are video stills taken from footage from the contest, could it be that the host broadcaster DR is the copyright holder ? You could ask DR to be sure that they either are not the copyright holders or that they give you permission to upload it. I know it's tempting to just upload the pictures because they may seem exciting.
• If you don't know who took the stills or footage, that complicates matters further since you don't know the copyright holder and can't be sure that the work is now copyright-free if the legal status is bound to a certain time limit (50 or 70 years) after the death of the author.

To sum up my position: Think twice before doing it. That's my two cents. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 20:18, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Partially lost audio

Before I found the 1956 program guide from DR, someone else sent me the program guide for 1964. (See pages 30-32 https://www.dr.dk/alletidersprogramoversigter/?from=1964-03-21&to=1964-03-22&date=1964-03-21&fileIndex=29)

Similar to the 1956 guide, it mentions everything that was scheduled to happen in the show, including an act after Gigliola Cinquetti’s reprise. Kai Mortensen, the musical director, conducted the song “Wonderful Copenhagen.” However in all of the YT videos about the 1964 contest, it’s missing. In fact, in those videos, after the voting ends, the audience does a few rounds of applause, before a video of the reprise is seen. This reprise actually has lower audio of the entry earlier in the contest, and the winning announcement from Svend Pedersen is omitted entirely. These factors also confirm that the 1964 audio is still incomplete.

Fortunately, I don’t think any inferences can be made, because it’s very easy to identify the details of the orchestration, and I don’t think my edit regarding it should be reverted. Jusherman (talk) 20:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello! This is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH in my opinion. As far as I can see, you compared audios of various youtube videos with the koda list for what was broadcast on Danish television, and concluded therefrom that a broadcast from Danish radio must be incomplete. The only thing which the koda list proves is that "Wonderful Copenhagen" was the last piece played in the televised program. However, the source quoted doesn't say anything about 1) a possible survival of a Danish radio broadcast 2) that Danish radio broadcast being incomplete.

(Besided that, even if you're doing original research, an incomplete Youtube audio doesn't prove that the archived radio broadcast which it initially was taken from is also incomplete.)

Before you made your edit, the paragraph included the claim "a complete audio recording does exist in the form of the DR radio broadcast" but that claim semms to have been unsourced at all times.

I would strongly be in favour of

1) undoing your edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_1964&oldid=1215047038

2) adding a "citation needed" to the claim that a DR radio broadcast exists, if not removing that claim until it is reliably sourced EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 15:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

There has been no reaction for a week now, so I have taken the freedom to undo your edit for the greatest part. Feel free to discuss it if there are any questions or points of debate. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 12:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I’m very sorry for not responding sooner. If you’re still looking for a late answer, I would have to go to the second option, because I think it should be known that the 1964 audio is still partial, and I want some truth to be attached to the claim.

I also have another claim on proof that “Wonderful Copenhagen” was used. In a VRT rehearsal clip, we see a lot of footage of the contest getting prepared for an early rehearsal. One of these clips pans to sheet music titled “Wonderful Copenhagen” with Arne Lamberth credited as a composer. This song isn’t heard anywhere in any of the uploads on the 1964 contest. In the DR koda list, the last bullet point mentions “Wonderful Copenhagen” and Lamberth’s name.

If it’s allowed, we can use the VRT article that had the video attached. https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2021/12/15/songfestival-1964-beeld/ I hope this is enough to make the claim more valid. Jusherman (talk) 14:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. It was maybe unclear that point 2 in my reply wasn’t meant to be an “option” but I was in favour of doing both 1 AND 2. In fact, I have made the corresponding changes. The article now still mentions that there exists a French radio broadcast because this is properly sourced. The claim that this radio broadcast or any other possibly existing radio broadcast is incomplete has not been sourced so far. As soon as such a secondary source is found, it can be used to source that information and then it can be added.

What the video from VRT proves is:

The sheet music of “Wonderful Copenhagen”, with an arrangement by Arne Lambert (“arr.”), is being shown in a report using otherwise images from rehearsals.

My Dutch is unfortunately not good enough to understand what is being spoken while the sheet music appears on screen. The video probably implies that “Wonderful Copenhagen” was planned to be performed in the live show but, to be honest, this is rather too implicit and too weak in order to be considered to be a proper source for any the claims.

What the koda list proves is:

1. “Wonderful Copenhagen” was the last piece of music played during the program.
2. It was conducted by Kai Mortensen
3. It was composed by Frank Loesser (actually the document says “Frank Loeffer” but that seems to be a typo)
4. The arrangement (“arr.”) was made by Arne Lamberth.

Now which of these four pieces of information can be found to be both relevant to the article and useful by a reader of the article? I’d say no. 1. So in my opinion, a sentence like

“After the winning reprise, ‘Wonderful Copenhagen’ was played by the orchestra.” could be part of the “Contest overview” section at an appropriate place.

The information about Kai Mortensen conducting the orchestra for this particular piece (no. 2) is not relevant since we know that he was the musical director of the orchestra during the show, only stepping aside for guest conductors at participating countries’ entries. The information about the composer (no 3) is already present in the Wikipedia article about “Wonderful Copenhagen”. No 4 (the identity of the arranger) is irrelevant to the article.

The koda list doesn’t say anything about any radio broadcast nor about them being incomplete. Audios on Youtube (which are copyright violations) don’t prove the extent of the original radio broadcast nor the extent of the radio broadcast copy located at the INA archives. Any audio or video on Youtube, Reddit or Social Media can have been cut at the beginning or the end. So if “Wonderful Copenhagen” is not in the Youtube audio, that doesn’t prove anything. If you want to prove that the radio broadcast copy at the INA archives misses “Wonderful Copenhagen”, you have to listen yourself to the inamediapro file (account necessary) or travel to one of the INA centres in France and listen to the file on site.

EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

INA audio

In 2023, I found someone who was able to gain access to all of the media in the INA website, ranging from videos to audio files.

When he checked INA’s page on the 1964 contest, he found an hour long audio clip with commentary from Robert Beauvais, which is mentioned in the very first seconds. Unfortunately the audio is incomplete, as it fades to narration and the sound of fanfare during Belgium’s entry. Someone else saved the audio, and uploaded it to YouTube. https://youtube.com/nvOnax6ATjU?si=_3QbMo6oQQ3pnmkJ

I think my edit regarding this can heavily changed, mainly because of my failed attempt to include a source from YT. If anyone can help me properly source it, that would be a big help. Jusherman (talk) 20:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I replaced the sentence with a statement and direct link to INA's archive. The Youtube-link has copyright issues (as you said yourself, it seems to have been stolen from INA and illegaly uploaded by a user) and should therefore not be included (see WP:YT). A direct link to INA where the audio can be consulted (by professional subscribers) is the better solution, in my opinion. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 15:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)